want to turn to ecclesiastical politics for a while, and I want to be fair, I want to talk about something that JD Vance said, which I thought was very interesting, and I want to be fair here.

We live in the age of the Enlightenment in which it is permissible and even encouraged to question religious authority and question religious doctrine and the world's Catholics obviously differ on many theological issues, but there was still something odd about the statement that JD Vance made the other day.

Watched part of it.

When the Pope says that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword.

There is a 1000 year more than 1000 year tradition of just war theory, OK?

Now, we can, of course, have disagreements about whether this or that conflict is just, but I think that it's important in the same way that it's important for the Vice President of the United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy.

I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.

So he's right, obviously, there's August Augustinian just war theory, 1000 years of tradition and obviously doctrinal difference.

And that's all true, and actually intellectually interesting.

Um, I, I was a little confused by the the tone.

at the end by telling the pope to be careful about how he discusses theology.

There was a temerity to it that I thought was um misplaced.

Talk about this a little temerity to it that I think we're accustomed to from from JD Vance.

I think it's, I think it's fair and generous of you to suggest that he was making that more profound point about just war theory.

I mean, one of the four main points of just war theory is that you have to be fighting on behalf of a righteous cause.

JD Vance opposed the war to Donald Trump, and he's out in public arguing in favor of it.

So I think he's on shaky ground there.

The other thing he said in the very next sentence was that he advised the pope that when he talks about theology, he said, you've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth.

You just have to, from JD Vance, who's the vice president to Donald Trump.

This is the guy who said that um you know, they were eating pets in Ohio.

And when he was asked about that, said, if I have to create stories to get the American media to follow these things.

That's what I'm gonna do.

This is the guy who's lecturing the Pope on truth, temerity is a pretty good word for it, Michael, take us a little bit through this.

How did this fight begin between the Pope and the President?

Well, so Pope Leo for weeks has been steadily increasing his rhetoric of concern about what's happening in Iran, you know, March 30th first, he says he hopes that Trump is looking for an off-ramp Weeks later, he says the threat to the American or days later the threat to the American people is unacceptable.

Then he comes out and says God does not bless any conflict, which is, which prompts you know, that response.

That was actually in a tweet which I think then prompts the president because he can read a tweet.

to to release last Sunday a very long uh sort of blistering true social post that essentially says, you know, talks about the Pope as if he's just another politician.

He's weak on crime.

He's terrible in foreign policy.

I like his brother better.

I mean, that was basically the, the tone of it.

And, and interestingly, the Pope has rather than stepped back from that, has has stepped up and, and has talked in even more aggressive terms.

He's on a trip to Africa right now about how, you know, military leaders should not use religion to justify their actions, you know, sort of veiled reference to what Hakeeth has been doing over at the Pentagon.

Catholic voters are a real swing group in this country.

There are not a lot of swing groups left in this country, but, uh, you know, Joe Biden won Catholics by like 1 point.

It was a 50/50 race in 2020.

Uh uh uh Trump won Catholics by 12 points over Kamala Harris.

The world has sort of uh sided against Trump on this.

You had Maloney, the Prime Minister of Italy, coming out and saying, I really don't like what he's saying.

She's an ally of President Trump.

And then you had separately this week this whole other scandal of the president throwing up an AI generated image of himself as Jesus, which upset all his evangelical followers.

So Trump is not really operating.

He hasn't backed down.

He says he won't apologize, but he's not really operating from a position He's just to hear the Pope directly.

This is, I think, a quote that captures what he's trying to say over the last couple of weeks.

Let's listen to the Pope.

The things that I say are certainly not meant as a tax for that one.

and uh the message of the gospel, it's very clear, blessed are the makers.

I will not shy away, growled, announcing the message of the gospel of the few ways to deploy for any time that's possible.

Leanne, let's talk about this politically.

Alas, um, it's one thing to attack senators, congressmen, governors.

It's another thing to pick up political fight with the Pope.

On the hill, what are people, Catholic and non-Catholic, what are they saying about this in terms of uh the the the political price that could be paid for having a fight with somebody you really can't beat in a kind of way.

Well, Republicans are mostly defending the president here, including Catholic Republicans.

Yes, Speaker Mike Johnson is not Catholic, but he is extreme ly religious.

He says that the Pope should not get involved in political discussions and political fights, and you know, Democrats obviously think that this is ridiculous and that the president is not a fight that he should be fighting.

But politically, Republicans see the entire coalition, the Republican coalition, falling apart and they're extremely nervous about it.

He's upset ting Catholics.

Um, he is upsetting the president is upsetting young voters who are moving away from the president.

Independence absolutely in polling are very unsatisfied with this president Women are not happy with the president and in some recent polling, even some men are he's underwater on men or close to it.

So this is really bad news for the president for Republicans heading into the midterm elections when they are trying desperately to get the president focused on the economy.

I mean, we said that you know, earlier that he was in Nevada and Arizona talking about no taxes on tips while this war was happening.

That's actually what the Republicans want him to be talking about.

2 days was a huge success for in the eyes of Republicans that they were able to get him to focus on it, but they want a lot more of it.

They they still think we're despite all of this, that he is their best messenger.

John how does he get out of this fight with the Pope.

His usual tactics don't work.

He only knows, he only has one speed, and that's just to, to, to accelerate, to expand the fight.

He did get blowback from Republicans over the AI image.

I think that is something that even the Jesus image, the Jesus image, even Speaker Johnson felt that was inappropriate.

It is so rare when he dares cross President Trump.

I mean, you know, for Trump it would mean backing down.

He's sort of refused to do that, but I think it also, it comes in a week where he's just taking loss after loss after loss.

Now, perhaps the Iran situation will turn around as we all say It's too soon to say, impossible to predict, but this is also a week where his best buddy in Europe, Viktor Orban, lost and lost big after Trump had endorsed it after the Vice President went to Budapest.

Secretary of State was there earlier this year.

Trump, on the eve of the election, said the US will invest in Hungary if Orban wins another term and the Hungarian voters not only said no, they said no resoundingly.

So the Trump's usual plays as I wrote this week for The Atlantic to start working right now.

Yeah, I mean, here's the example of what we're talking about.

This is the the image that that he posted, and then Trump had a kind of incredible denial, uh, which we should listen to.

It was me.

I've, I did first it and I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross worker there, which we support and uh only the fake news could come up with that one.

Deeper question.

What percentage of the country believes him when he says that he thought it was a doctor.

Oh, I don't think even his supporters believe that.

I mean, I don't think anybody's had a doctor with glowing ointment, you know, put, put on their heads, but I think his supporters are willing to go along with it, which is a different, uh, which is a different point made Steve laugh, the glowing, the white robe and the red sax.

I think about who our health secretary is, so maybe, yeah, yeah, no, I, I, but, but honestly, like his supporters like when he says things like that at this point, it, it, there's sort of like a, a meta narrative going on.

Everyone knows he's making that up, and I think, you know, what the question is whether you're happy he's sticking it again to the liberal media and calling them liars and are willing to go along with this trade, or whether you're actually, you know, upset about the truth.

That's that's where it wasn't anchored in truth, as JD Vance might say.

I, I, I want to read you something that our Washington Week colleague Peter Baker wrote this, uh, about this week, a series of disjointed, hard to follow, and sometimes profane statements kept by his a whole civilization will die tonight threat to wipe Iran off the map last week, and his head spinning attack on the week on crime and terrible for foreign policy Pope on Sunday night have left many with the impression of a deranged autocrat, mad with power.

Now, we, we have all spent years in uh in the media, kind of dancing around subjects of mental stability, intellectual capability and so on.

I feel like this conversation is becoming a little bit more, and Peter is not the most incautious journalist, The New York Times is not the most incautious journalism institution in America.

Uh are we entering a new phase?

Was all this Jesus talk and fighting with the Pope this week, a sign that maybe we're entering a new phase in a discussion about Trump's capabilities.

I think it's possible, and when we got there with his predecessor, President Biden, whether his age, whether he was still up for the job, became one of the defining storylines, of course, in 2024 with that debate.

People have been dancing around it for a while now, and of course the White House denies it, they say he's up for the job.

They say President Trump's always been like this in some ways he's always been like this, but I do think it's what we've seen in the last 1 to 10 days, particularly the threat to wipe out a civilization, I think is raising questions for more and more Americans about about his stability.

I think I think that I was just going to say I think that more than his rep you know, his mental capability right now.

It's more the kind of drunk on power situation.

If Iran would have been successful, it's highly likely, I'm told by people close to him that he already would have been in Cuba.

So it, it's the successes that he feels like he has had over and over again is perpetuating this image of this godlike image, really, and I think that that is probably perhaps more than his mental capacity where the discussion.

You raised it.

Do you think there's still a chance he will go into Cuba?

I, I do.

I don't think that there's not a chance.

What's to say when he gets bored or when he moves on from Iran.

He has Marco Rubio, who this is something that he wants as well.

He has allies in the administration who want it, so we'll see.

I think we're we're returning to the sort of erratic behavior of the first term.

The defining fact of this last year was there was a sort of missionary zeal across government and an amazing ability to get stuff done.

He was able to sort of remake a lot of the federal government.

He got big legislation through.

He had all these foreign conflicts.

We're now entering a stage where his ability to do any of that is severely diminished.

Like Congress is going to be basically locked.

He's going to lose power.

He's going to have to fight for these midterm elections.

The polling is not good.

It's probably not going to get much better.

And, and his foreign, his foreign ability to project power is basically been shown to have limits in a way it hadn't up to this point.

And so when that happens, he begins to act out, and I think that's what we're entering.

I'm still betting, maybe you guys disagree with me, but I'm still betting that he comes back to the Greenland subject as well, because it always everything spins been talking about it this week back around, yes, but Steve, let me, we'll end with you on this.

I guess there's two questions.

One is he diminishing in capabilities or in self-restraint.

Um, and the second question is, are we in the media, in the political class, generally, if not on the MAGA side, going to be more, do you, do you anticipate people being more frank about what we're seeing that this Jesus moment and, and, and, and the, the, the fight with the pope really struck me as, well, this is a new level.

I don't think it's a different Donald Trump.

I think this is who Donald Trump has always been.

We've seen moments of intensity like we're seeing right now and we've seen moments when it wanes.

Um, well, we'll be talking about this again.

I don't know how much we're going to be talking about papal politics in the future, but we may well make peace.

We very well might be.

They should debate.

Vatican and Pope Leo should debate.

Well, thank you for watching Vatican Week.

We're going to have to leave it there.

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